Comments on: Generation of Complex Diagrams: How to Make Lasagna Instead of Spaghetti http://complexdiagrams.com/2007/10/12/generation-of-complex-diagrams-how-to-make-spaghetti-instead-of-lasagne/ Knowledge Visualization, Information Graphics, and Information Design Sat, 5 Jul 2008 01:19:10 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.3 by: Ignite Seattle! » Ignite Seattle 5: The Schedule http://complexdiagrams.com/2007/10/12/generation-of-complex-diagrams-how-to-make-spaghetti-instead-of-lasagne/#comment-365 Mon, 18 Feb 2008 01:01:10 +0000 http://complexdiagrams.com/2007/10/12/generation-of-complex-diagrams-how-to-make-spaghetti-instead-of-lasagne/#comment-365 [...] Noah Iliinsky - Generation of Complex Diagrams: How to Make Lasagna Instead of SpaghettiA system for creating good diagrams, starting with perception and cognition, and ending by advising key choice points. [...] […] Noah Iliinsky - Generation of Complex Diagrams: How to Make Lasagna Instead of SpaghettiA system for creating good diagrams, starting with perception and cognition, and ending by advising key choice points. […]

]]> by: Internet Alchemy » links for 2008-02-13 http://complexdiagrams.com/2007/10/12/generation-of-complex-diagrams-how-to-make-spaghetti-instead-of-lasagne/#comment-322 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 06:22:56 +0000 http://complexdiagrams.com/2007/10/12/generation-of-complex-diagrams-how-to-make-spaghetti-instead-of-lasagne/#comment-322 [...] Complex Diagrams » Generation of Complex Diagrams: How to Make Lasagna Instead of Spaghetti (tags: visualization diagrams data) [...] […] Complex Diagrams » Generation of Complex Diagrams: How to Make Lasagna Instead of Spaghetti (tags: visualization diagrams data) […]

]]> by: Semergence » Blog Archive » links for 2008-02-12 http://complexdiagrams.com/2007/10/12/generation-of-complex-diagrams-how-to-make-spaghetti-instead-of-lasagne/#comment-305 Tue, 12 Feb 2008 04:24:23 +0000 http://complexdiagrams.com/2007/10/12/generation-of-complex-diagrams-how-to-make-spaghetti-instead-of-lasagne/#comment-305 [...] Complex Diagrams » Generation of Complex Diagrams: How to Make Lasagna Instead of Spaghetti (tags: graphics data visualization graphs diagrams) [...] […] Complex Diagrams » Generation of Complex Diagrams: How to Make Lasagna Instead of Spaghetti (tags: graphics data visualization graphs diagrams) […]

]]> by: Ignite Seattle! » Ignite Seattle Talks http://complexdiagrams.com/2007/10/12/generation-of-complex-diagrams-how-to-make-spaghetti-instead-of-lasagne/#comment-302 Mon, 11 Feb 2008 14:56:52 +0000 http://complexdiagrams.com/2007/10/12/generation-of-complex-diagrams-how-to-make-spaghetti-instead-of-lasagne/#comment-302 [...] Noah Iliinsky - Generation of Complex Diagrams: How to Make Lasagna Instead of SpaghettiA system for creating good diagrams, starting with perception and cognition, and ending by advising key choice points. [...] […] Noah Iliinsky - Generation of Complex Diagrams: How to Make Lasagna Instead of SpaghettiA system for creating good diagrams, starting with perception and cognition, and ending by advising key choice points. […]

]]> by: Noah http://complexdiagrams.com/2007/10/12/generation-of-complex-diagrams-how-to-make-spaghetti-instead-of-lasagne/#comment-6 Fri, 02 Nov 2007 18:57:34 +0000 http://complexdiagrams.com/2007/10/12/generation-of-complex-diagrams-how-to-make-spaghetti-instead-of-lasagne/#comment-6 Hi Mick, Thanks for your feedback. You're already on the right path in terms of axes with your 'parent above child' rule. Because you've made spatial placement matter, you've implicitly defined your vertical axis to have meaning relative to the hierarchy of your nodes: higher placement = higher in the hierarchy. That's very clear and very useful. If you want to make the horizontal axis meaningful you might thing about it in terms of groups instead of a continuum of values. If there is no natural ordering to work with, a totally arbitrary order can still be useful, as long as you clearly communicate your groupings. So instead of an axis that looks like: [highest value] -> -> -> [lowest value] you could simply divide the area into chunks: [customer tables] [transaction tables] [product tables] An example of this is the vertical axis in my speech diagram. The thematic rows have distinct values but don't have an inherent "right" order, so I chose an ordering that I thought made sense to me. By doing so I made placement on the vertical axis meaningful. Good luck! Please let me know if you have any more thoughts or questions. Best, Noah Hi Mick,

Thanks for your feedback.

You’re already on the right path in terms of axes with your ‘parent above child’ rule. Because you’ve made spatial placement matter, you’ve implicitly defined your vertical axis to have meaning relative to the hierarchy of your nodes: higher placement = higher in the hierarchy. That’s very clear and very useful.

If you want to make the horizontal axis meaningful you might thing about it in terms of groups instead of a continuum of values. If there is no natural ordering to work with, a totally arbitrary order can still be useful, as long as you clearly communicate your groupings. So instead of an axis that looks like:
[highest value] -> -> -> [lowest value]
you could simply divide the area into chunks:
[customer tables] [transaction tables] [product tables]

An example of this is the vertical axis in my speech diagram. The thematic rows have distinct values but don’t have an inherent “right” order, so I chose an ordering that I thought made sense to me. By doing so I made placement on the vertical axis meaningful.

Good luck! Please let me know if you have any more thoughts or questions.

Best, Noah

]]> by: Mick http://complexdiagrams.com/2007/10/12/generation-of-complex-diagrams-how-to-make-spaghetti-instead-of-lasagne/#comment-5 Thu, 01 Nov 2007 22:42:00 +0000 http://complexdiagrams.com/2007/10/12/generation-of-complex-diagrams-how-to-make-spaghetti-instead-of-lasagne/#comment-5 Hi Noah, A subject very close to my heart. I spend my professional life drawing business process and data diagrams and am constantly staggered at the poor quality of such diagrams from sources that should know better. Many of these diagrams are undigestible and literally not worth the paper (or pixels) they are printed on. Anything that can improve this situation, such as your thesis, is very welcome. I was especially interested in your comments on entity relationship diagrams (ERD). I seem to be fighting a lone battle to use the 'parent above child' rule (aka the 'no dead crows rule') in drawing these diagrams. This gives the entities a positional value and achieves consistency in the few generic structures that appear in these models. Assuming you can strech your entity boxes it is possible to achieve very large diagrams (100 entities +) without a single bent or crossing line. This does require significant spatial awareness skills to spot how to unravel some of the spaghetti so I'm doubtful if this process can ever be distilled to a few rules and eventually automated (but I could be wrong). Regarding your comments on axes, I'm not sure what sort of axes you could apply to an ERD. I'd be interested in your thoughts on that. Regards, Mick Hi Noah,

A subject very close to my heart. I spend my professional life drawing business process and data diagrams and am constantly staggered at the poor quality of such diagrams from sources that should know better. Many of these diagrams are undigestible and literally not worth the paper (or pixels) they are printed on. Anything that can improve this situation, such as your thesis, is very welcome.

I was especially interested in your comments on entity relationship diagrams (ERD). I seem to be fighting a lone battle to use the ‘parent above child’ rule (aka the ‘no dead crows rule’) in drawing these diagrams. This gives the entities a positional value and achieves consistency in the few generic structures that appear in these models. Assuming you can strech your entity boxes it is possible to achieve very large diagrams (100 entities +) without a single bent or crossing line. This does require significant spatial awareness skills to spot how to unravel some of the spaghetti so I’m doubtful if this process can ever be distilled to a few rules and eventually automated (but I could be wrong). Regarding your comments on axes, I’m not sure what sort of axes you could apply to an ERD. I’d be interested in your thoughts on that.

Regards,

Mick

]]> by: Dave http://complexdiagrams.com/2007/10/12/generation-of-complex-diagrams-how-to-make-spaghetti-instead-of-lasagne/#comment-4 Thu, 18 Oct 2007 15:34:26 +0000 http://complexdiagrams.com/2007/10/12/generation-of-complex-diagrams-how-to-make-spaghetti-instead-of-lasagne/#comment-4 Hi Noah, I enjoyed your thesis very much. Great thinking. I am currently in the process of digesting it and integrating the ideas with some of our internal training at XPLANE. Thanks, Dave Hi Noah,

I enjoyed your thesis very much. Great thinking. I am currently in the process of digesting it and integrating the ideas with some of our internal training at XPLANE.

Thanks,

Dave

]]> by: Complex Diagrams » Exposition of Threads in a Speech http://complexdiagrams.com/2007/10/12/generation-of-complex-diagrams-how-to-make-spaghetti-instead-of-lasagne/#comment-3 Sat, 13 Oct 2007 07:37:20 +0000 http://complexdiagrams.com/2007/10/12/generation-of-complex-diagrams-how-to-make-spaghetti-instead-of-lasagne/#comment-3 [...] I created this diagram in the fall of 2003. The diagram and the text of this post appear in my thesis. [...] […] I created this diagram in the fall of 2003. The diagram and the text of this post appear in my thesis. […]

]]> by: Complex Diagrams » Hierarchy of a Book http://complexdiagrams.com/2007/10/12/generation-of-complex-diagrams-how-to-make-spaghetti-instead-of-lasagne/#comment-2 Sat, 13 Oct 2007 06:45:37 +0000 http://complexdiagrams.com/2007/10/12/generation-of-complex-diagrams-how-to-make-spaghetti-instead-of-lasagne/#comment-2 [...] I created this diagram in the fall of 2003. It appears in my thesis, and was selected to be supporting material for the book The Practical Guide to Information Design, by Ronnie Lipton. [...] […] I created this diagram in the fall of 2003. It appears in my thesis, and was selected to be supporting material for the book The Practical Guide to Information Design, by Ronnie Lipton. […]

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